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Mar 09, 2020 WarFriends is a skill-based, real-time online shooter game with fresh graphics and intuitive touch controls and online PvP brawls full of action and challenges. Collect powerful military weapons, build an army, and go to war on online battlegrounds in duels against real players. Jump into this fun, fast-paced online PvP duel arena and become the best brawling hero of all times! Mount&Blade: Warband is a stand-alone expansion pack for its predecessor, the action role-playing video game Mount&Blade. The game was developed by TaleWorlds and was published by Paradox Interactive on March 30, 2010. Paradox Interactive gave publishing rights back to TaleWorlds as of January.
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Not at all, the game strives for realism.Bow damage is influenced by the Power Draw skill, which is limited by Strength, and by your weapon proficiency with a bow, which is not limited, but somewhat suppressed by low Weapon Mastery, which is limited by Agility.So for maximum bow damage (and accuracy, and rate of fire) you need primarily Strength, and secondarily agility. By the way, with high weapon proficiency, high Power Draw and a bow that can make use of it, you can surprising amount of damage, easily enough to kill anyone with a head shot, and most troops with a shot in the breastplate.
At least from close range.-By the way, Strength does increase melee damage by itself, but only very, very slightly. To get a significant increase, you need to improve your Power Strike, which is limited by Strength.
Originally posted by:Not at all, the game strives for realism.Bow damage is influenced by the Power Draw skill, which is limited by Strength, and by your weapon proficiency with a bow, which is not limited, but somewhat suppressed by low Weapon Mastery, which is limited by Agility.So for maximum bow damage (and accuracy, and rate of fire) you need primarily Strength, and secondarily agility. By the way, with high weapon proficiency, high Power Draw and a bow that can make use of it, you can surprising amount of damage, easily enough to kill anyone with a head shot, and most troops with a shot in the breastplate. At least from close range.-By the way, Strength does increase melee damage by itself, but only very, very slightly. To get a significant increase, you need to improve your Power Strike, which is limited by Strength.So the damage of a bow isn't increased with STR or AGI, but you need both in order to increase the things that do,which are Power Draw, which needs STR,and Weapon Mastery, which needs AGI,Weapon Master is needed to increase Proficiency, which increases damage. I believe that is indeed what he said. Though, I'm not sure linking bow damage to a power draw stat really is all that realistic. To draw a bow you need raw strength, not some arbitrary ability limited by your strength.
To use a bow effectively you need proficiency with the bow. It seems to me the power draw skill is actually less realistic than just having raw strength increase damage. Beyond that, bows should have a maximum damage amount as well. No matter how strong you are you can only draw so far before the bow will break. Its design and materials should have a minimum strength requirement and a maximum strength ceiling above which additional strength adds nothing.Heck, power draw shouldn't really increase the damage all that much either. Armor penetration sure - but additional draw weight really just makes the arrow fly faster - leading to greater range and a flatter trajectory. This improves accuracy more than how much damage the arrow actually does to the target, at least in reality.Still, games are rarely terribly realistic and this one is one of the better ones.
Originally posted by:I believe that is indeed what he said. Though, I'm not sure linking bow damage to a power draw stat really is all that realistic.I'm a long time archer, I've hunted (when I couldn't avoid it, I hate it), won tournaments, including a trophy for horse archery from a harvest festival (held before harvest, but that's Japanese for you)I think it is realistic.To draw a bow you need raw strength, not some arbitrary ability limited by your strength. Do you think your fingers can hold 140 pounds?
Release a string twenty times in two minutes? Do you know how to lean into the bow, as opposed to drawing the string back? Do you know how to prevent the string to taking off chunks off your left forearm or your nipple, for that matter?
Do you know how and when to release so that the first shot does not tire or hurt you so bad that you cannot get off a second? That's your Power Draw skill. I place mine between 4 and 5, and I have messed around with bows for more than twenty years.I use a 65 pound bow, can handle a 80 pound, and I have met exactly one person who can draw 120, but Power Draw 10 is the human maximum, which historically was 140 pounds, and now is more. I have friends who are twice as big as I am, who can bench press or snatch twice as much as me, and who cannot get more than three shots off my 80 pound bow (forget accuracy), while I can manage 10 reasonably accurate ones in a reasonable amount of time.Drawing a bow is a skill, which in Warband is Power Draw, in the same way that Power Strike is a skill, which comprises edge alignment, drawing the cut, etc.To use a bow effectively you need proficiency with the bow.
It seems to me the power draw skill is actually less realistic than just having raw strength increase damage. Beyond that, bows should have a maximum damage amount as well. You mean the way that, in Warband, Power Draw doesn't at all increase the damage of bows that have low Power Draw requirement?no matter how strong you are you can only draw so far before the bow will break. Its design and materials should have a minimum strength requirement and a maximum strength ceiling above which additional strength adds nothing.Which is exactly how it is in Warband, thank you very much.
You need a particular Power Draw for anything but wimpy bows that cannot even scratch armor, and once your exceed the requirements by 4, Power Draw does nothing.By the way, while many bows would indeed snap if they are overdrawn, with Eastern type bows there can be two more limiting factors - drawing so far that there is no room for your fingers on the string (solved with a thumb ring) or drawing so far that the two tips (or rather the innermost curves of the limbs) meet. One of my bows can do that.Heck, power draw shouldn't really increase the damage all that much either. Armor penetration sure - but additional draw weight really just makes the arrow fly faster - leading to greater range and a flatter trajectory.Draw weight is just one of the two components which describe the energy stored in a bow - the other one is Draw length. The product of the two gives you the total energy that can be imparted to the arrow, although of course there are losses due to heat, friction within composites or even selfbows like the yew longbow, vibrations after the arrow is released, etc. That kinetic energy when the arrow leaves the bow gets expended against air resistance, or climb, and whatever remains at impact is what does the damage. Higher draw weight and longer draw length result in more energy. Some people (Mongols) went for insane draw weights, some people (Japanese) went for stupid draw length, and the English combined huge weight and impressive length for the highest energy arrows.Warband models that so well that it's scary, with the interplay of base damage, power draw requirement, and initial projectile speed.This improves accuracy more than how much damage the arrow actually does to the target, at least in reality.Nope, not at all.
I'm sorry, but that's pretty much the opposite of the truth. Higher draw weight makes a bow harder to control, and historically even made arrows harder to fletch for accuracy. As an extreme example, medieval high draw crossbows were grossly inaccurate and shorter ranged than bows, because they transfer their deformation to kinetic energy so quickly that the fletching could not survive the acceleration.Still, games are rarely terribly realistic and this one is one of the better ones. Preach it, brother! Originally posted by:I think they probably could have made archery super realistic but instead decided to make it fun and gamey Things they did not do:- fatigue from archery, nor melee for that matter.- effects of wind, mud, snow and dust.- wear on weapons, bows, and especially strings.- realistic wounds and realistic healing.- non-automaton horsesEach of these (except for wind, to my knowledge) has been implemented in mods. I personally do not mind mind fatigue in Viking Conquest, wounded horses slowing down in Perisno, lamed horses limping in The Last Days, etc. But I know it is not for everyone.
A ton of people complain with every added feature that makes the game arguably more realistic and definitely slower.I think that Warband went for the the right mix of realism and gameplay. I hope for the same balance in Bannerlord. Mods can add the rest, and produce something for every taste. I've spent perhaps a few hundred hours with a modern compound, as I used to attend weekly indoor tournaments back in college. Picked up a bare wooden recurve a couple years ago, and I'd be lucky to hit the broad side of a barn with it.
One in two arrows hits the target on a good day, lol.That said, I've always figured that archery was mainly about three things: Form (weapon proficiency in WB), ability to judge distance accurately (player aiming), and your own physical ability (the STR stat in WB). I suppose one could argue that the power draw stat is more of a physical characteristic of your character (strength of the muscles related to archery specifically), but I'd always taken it as more of a technique - which seemed rather out of place to me. How exactly does one 'power draw' a bow?
You draw to your anchor point, if you do otherwise you're not likely to hit something reliably. You seem to be treating it as a combination of both technique and physical characteristic, which to my mind was already implemented via the STR stat and Archery weapon proficiency.Honestly, I've never understood the difficulty people have in drawing bows. My compound has a draw weight of 80 pounds, and I've never had difficulty drawing it (nor am I a particularly athletic individual, lol). Our tournaments used to last three hours each Monday night, and I didn't really experience any noticeable drop in accuracy over the course of the night.
I suppose with traditional bows you're not going to have the let-off at full draw, but you really shouldn't be holding a bow at full draw anyway. I believe that my recurve was something like 50 or 60 pounds, and that one never gave me any trouble either. It's interesting that you mention that higher draw weights have lower accuracy. I was always told to use the highest draw weight I can comfortably manage because it increases accuracy due to a more level flight path and quicker moving arrow. That does seem somewhat odd now that I think about it though, at a lower draw weight your arrow should still fly the same each time - even if you have to aim a tiny bit higher to hit the same location.
The fraction of a second difference in flight time hardly matters - more time in the air means the wind might have more influence, but not by much.I had no idea that those mechanics I suggested already more or less are implemented in Warband. That's certainly cool.As for things they did not model. What about arrow speed and range? I've never actually tested it. Do bows with higher power draw requirements have faster moving arrows (have to lead moving targets less) or greater range? Originally posted by:That said, I've always figured that archery was mainly about three things: Form (weapon proficiency in WB), ability to judge distance accurately (player aiming), and your own physical ability (the STR stat in WB).
I suppose one could argue that the power draw stat is more of a physical characteristic of your character (strength of the muscles related to archery specifically), but I'd always taken it as more of a technique - which seemed rather out of place to me. How exactly does one 'power draw' a bow? You draw to your anchor point, if you do otherwise you're not likely to hit something reliably. You seem to be treating it as a combination of both technique and physical characteristic, which to my mind was already implemented via the STR stat and Archery weapon proficiency.The way I see it, stats are the physical abilities of your body, skills are what you have learned through study, and proficiencies are the result of using a weapon, i.e.
So you can 'learn' low proficiency through study (weapon proficiency points) but you can get higher proficiency only through practice.I agree that for some skills, it makes more sense than for others. One could say that there is a lot more to learn about using a sword correctly than about using a bow, and that if you have the physical strength to deform a bow, you can shoot it.To which I would approach a buff guy in my gym, hand him my 80 pound traditional recurve, unstrung, and ask him to shoot it. I bet you that he will NOT be able to do it without help in 15 minutes. Remember, the ancient Greeks of Homer time thought that recurves were magical.So, for me Power Draw is all the things you need to know, and all the physical training that works the muscles that are used for archery.Honestly, I've never understood the difficulty people have in drawing bows. My compound has a draw weight of 80 pounds, and I've never had difficulty drawing it (nor am I a particularly athletic individual, lol). Our tournaments used to last three hours each Monday night, and I didn't really experience any noticeable drop in accuracy over the course of the night. How many arrows do you fire per tournament?
At most of the ranges I ever practiced, you have shoot periods and retrieval periods. With my 65 pound bow, I could fire and concentrate on form, accuracy, etc. Without ever feeling any strain. I pretty much still can. With my 80 pounder, I would fire maybe one third fewer arrows if I was trying to be accurate (much slower draw) and after three salvos I would be reducing the number of arrows I could get in the air.
Today I do not use my 80 pounder for much more than 10 shots in a row, or I know that I will feel it the next day.You must be in much better shape than I am, or significantly bigger than me. I used to kickbox at light welterweight, and considered myself at pretty good shape, but I could get no accuracy whatsoever, nor much draw length from a 100+ bow.I suppose with traditional bows you're not going to have the let-off at full draw, but you really shouldn't be holding a bow at full draw anyway.It was not until now that I saw that you had been using a compound. I read that as a composite the first time.
Completely different bows. I do have a composite, and aiming is completely different. You can concentrate on drawing the bow, stabilize, and then loose. I bet I can get the same accuracy with any bow that I can actually draw. Get a traditional bow and give it a try. You will see that accuracy is a completely different story as you approach you draw limits.I was always told to use the highest draw weight I can comfortably manage because it increases accuracy due to a more level flight path and quicker moving arrow.Well, more energy means you can spend more of it on the angular momentum, and of course at extreme ranges, the more energy your arrow (or bullet for that matter) has, the more accurate it is. But at shorter ranges?If more power meant more accuracy, Olympic archers woudl be shooting monster bows.What do you think Olympic recurves' draw weight is?
Actually, I just looked it up to make sure, and found this www.lancasterarchery.com. It pretty much discusses EXACTLY what we are, so I'll just let you read it.But I will add one more thing. In Medieval times, they did not have our materials.
For example, longbowmen trying to use hunting arrows would sometimes have them shatter during release (the shaft would bend too much from the acceleration) Or quarrels could not be fletched for accuracy or flight, because feathers would not stay on, and the shaft had to be massive to withstand 1200 pound draw weight released over 20cm.Today, most quarrels you are likely to see are built exactly like arrows. They cannot be substituted for each other, but they are similar in construction, while Medival quarrels and arrows had little in common.I had no idea that those mechanics I suggested already more or less are implemented in Warband. That's certainly cool.As for things they did not model. What about arrow speed and range? I've never actually tested it.
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Do bows with higher power draw requirements have faster moving arrows (have to lead moving targets less) or greater range? Warband bows have the following properties:- basic damage- minimum power draw- speed (as in rate of fire)- accuracy (as in built in inaccuracy, i.e. Physical limitations of the weapon)- speed of the projectile at full draw release (hidden)- usable on horseback or notWith them, you can model everything you need, if you care to. For example, a yumi that relies on long draw with have lower power draw requirement than shorter selfbow, for similar damage but much lower speed. Or a short horseman recurve could have less damage than a longbow, despite having the same power draw requirements, due to draw length being much less. But will be usable on horseback.The flatness of the trajectory can be modeled with the speed, and the quality of the bow can afffect the accuracy.
But frankly, then we start coming on the big problem of Warband's model. Power vs accuracy, penetration vs flight properties, cutting versus piercing damage. All those are heavily influenced by the arrow, and Warband DOES. ALL.So, if you assume that everyone who uses a particular kind of bow uses the exact same arrows, you can model everything to your heart content. Energy, speed, flatness, penetration, damage.
But you cannot model any properties depending on the arrows, except damage, and you get silliness like bodkin arrows doing more damage than wide bladed hunting arrows, even against unarmored enemies. Originally posted by:That said, I've always figured that archery was mainly about three things: Form (weapon proficiency in WB), ability to judge distance accurately (player aiming), and your own physical ability (the STR stat in WB). I suppose one could argue that the power draw stat is more of a physical characteristic of your character (strength of the muscles related to archery specifically), but I'd always taken it as more of a technique - which seemed rather out of place to me. How exactly does one 'power draw' a bow? You draw to your anchor point, if you do otherwise you're not likely to hit something reliably. You seem to be treating it as a combination of both technique and physical characteristic, which to my mind was already implemented via the STR stat and Archery weapon proficiency.The way I see it, stats are the physical abilities of your body, skills are what you have learned through study, and proficiencies are the result of using a weapon, i.e. So you can 'learn' low proficiency through study (weapon proficiency points) but you can get higher proficiency only through practice.I agree that for some skills, it makes more sense than for others.
One could say that there is a lot more to learn about using a sword correctly than about using a bow, and that if you have the physical strength to deform a bow, you can shoot it.To which I would approach a buff guy in my gym, hand him my 80 pound traditional recurve, unstrung, and ask him to shoot it. I bet you that he will NOT be able to do it without help in 15 minutes. Remember, the ancient Greeks of Homer time thought that recurves were magical.So, for me Power Draw is all the things you need to know, and all the physical training that works the muscles that are used for archery.Honestly, I've never understood the difficulty people have in drawing bows. My compound has a draw weight of 80 pounds, and I've never had difficulty drawing it (nor am I a particularly athletic individual, lol). Our tournaments used to last three hours each Monday night, and I didn't really experience any noticeable drop in accuracy over the course of the night.
How many arrows do you fire per tournament? At most of the ranges I ever practiced, you have shoot periods and retrieval periods. With my 65 pound bow, I could fire and concentrate on form, accuracy, etc. Without ever feeling any strain.
I pretty much still can. With my 80 pounder, I would fire maybe one third fewer arrows if I was trying to be accurate (much slower draw) and after three salvos I would be reducing the number of arrows I could get in the air. Today I do not use my 80 pounder for much more than 10 shots in a row, or I know that I will feel it the next day.You must be in much better shape than I am, or significantly bigger than me.
I used to kickbox at light welterweight, and considered myself at pretty good shape, but I could get no accuracy whatsoever, nor much draw length from a 100+ bow.I suppose with traditional bows you're not going to have the let-off at full draw, but you really shouldn't be holding a bow at full draw anyway.It was not until now that I saw that you had been using a compound. I read that as a composite the first time. Completely different bows.
I do have a composite, and aiming is completely different. You can concentrate on drawing the bow, stabilize, and then loose. I bet I can get the same accuracy with any bow that I can actually draw. Get a traditional bow and give it a try. You will see that accuracy is a completely different story as you approach you draw limits.I was always told to use the highest draw weight I can comfortably manage because it increases accuracy due to a more level flight path and quicker moving arrow.Well, more energy means you can spend more of it on the angular momentum, and of course at extreme ranges, the more energy your arrow (or bullet for that matter) has, the more accurate it is.
But at shorter ranges?If more power meant more accuracy, Olympic archers woudl be shooting monster bows.What do you think Olympic recurves' draw weight is? Actually, I just looked it up to make sure, and found this www.lancasterarchery.com. It pretty much discusses EXACTLY what we are, so I'll just let you read it.But I will add one more thing. In Medieval times, they did not have our materials. For example, longbowmen trying to use hunting arrows would sometimes have them shatter during release (the shaft would bend too much from the acceleration) Or quarrels could not be fletched for accuracy or flight, because feathers would not stay on, and the shaft had to be massive to withstand 1200 pound draw weight released over 20cm.Today, most quarrels you are likely to see are built exactly like arrows. They cannot be substituted for each other, but they are similar in construction, while Medival quarrels and arrows had little in common.I had no idea that those mechanics I suggested already more or less are implemented in Warband.
That's certainly cool.As for things they did not model. What about arrow speed and range? I've never actually tested it. Do bows with higher power draw requirements have faster moving arrows (have to lead moving targets less) or greater range? Warband bows have the following properties:- basic damage- minimum power draw- speed (as in rate of fire)- accuracy (as in built in inaccuracy, i.e.
Physical limitations of the weapon)- speed of the projectile at full draw release (hidden)- usable on horseback or notWith them, you can model everything you need, if you care to. For example, a yumi that relies on long draw with have lower power draw requirement than shorter selfbow, for similar damage but much lower speed. Or a short horseman recurve could have less damage than a longbow, despite having the same power draw requirements, due to draw length being much less. But will be usable on horseback.The flatness of the trajectory can be modeled with the speed, and the quality of the bow can afffect the accuracy.
But frankly, then we start coming on the big problem of Warband's model. Power vs accuracy, penetration vs flight properties, cutting versus piercing damage. All those are heavily influenced by the arrow, and Warband DOES. ALL.So, if you assume that everyone who uses a particular kind of bow uses the exact same arrows, you can model everything to your heart content. Energy, speed, flatness, penetration, damage. But you cannot model any properties depending on the arrows, except damage, and you get silliness like bodkin arrows doing more damage than wide bladed hunting arrows, even against unarmored enemies. Can't say much about RL archery myself, as though I'm interested in trying it, there aren't really any public ranges in my area, and I'm too antisocial to deal with a club, but I can say with confidence that Warband does model different ranges for different levels of bow.Or at the very least different trajectories.
Every time I play a foot archer character, there is a massive difference when switching from a hunting or short bow to a longbow or war bow. It's nowhere near as noticeable when playing a horse archer, since I'm usually firing from much shorter range and with more focus on properly adjusting for momentum in that situation anyway.Can't speak for faster moving arrows, really, but I have noticed signifigant changes with effective range between different types of bow in warband, at least at lower proficiencies. It probably evens out a fair bit at high proficiencies (450+).As for the arrow influence, part of the issue is that bows are treated as straight up piercing damage rather than having piercing v cutting depending on the type of arrow used. If that were the case, you would have far more realistic performance, and your choice of arrow would come down to more than 'bigger DMG number!' For example, using a hunting (wide blade) tip against Swadians/Rhodoks would be a bad idea, due to their armor while the same tip against the Khergits/Sarranids would be more effective against the majority of their troops, due to sub-par armor on most of them.
Those tips would also be absolutely devastating on the likes of looters and mountain bandits, as well as the desert bandits (or their horses, at any rate).Of course, with high enough power draw being utilized or really high proficiency, it won't matter anyway, but yeah.FWIW, when doing a horse archer build in warband, I tend to aim for 15 STR/5 PD as quick as possible, then pour the rest into Agility until 15 AGI / 5 WM / 5 HA. When doing foot archer, I focus on getting strength higher first, more along the lines of 21, before putting points into agility. Originally posted by:Quick question:What is the exact interplay between strength, power draw, and the bow's power draw requirement? If you have 5 power draw, what is the difference in damage modifier (not base damage) between a bow with 0, 3, and 5 requirement? Power draw adds 14% times the number of points you have in it, until you have 4 points over the bows power draw requirement, at which point the scaling stops.So, if you have a PD of 6 and a short bow requiring a PD of 1, you will effectively only be using 5 points of power draw.
If a bow has zero PD requirement, I'm unsure if it is affected at all by PD. I do actually have a wooden recurve bow, but I'm not sure if it's traditional or composite. Regardless, it's absolutely different.
With my compound we'd shoot 5 shots, then go retrieve. Do that 4 times a round, with 3 rounds total. So, 60 shots a night? I'd get maybe 55 of those in the bullseye.With the wooden recurve. Maybe half hit the target at all. It's a very different experience, and I never did really figure out how to aim properly.Glad I read this thread though. I think I learned at least a half dozen new things about how warband's archery works.As for giving your bow to a guy at the gym.
He'd probably hurt himself trying to string it. Though, if he managed it, the first thing he'd probably do is try to dry fire it.
And that'd be the end of that.
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